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mungfjeld
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 418
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 Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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PopMusicChick, I think you have some interesting views, and some great advise.
But I don't agree completely with your view on necessary vowels for the modes.
Remember those vowel-modifications are necessary in the high part of the voice, I have listened to your clips on youtube (great singing), and there are only a few notes in the beginning of the high part, and none of them are metallic.
Now please don't misunderstand me, I don't presume to know all about your singing just because I have heard 3 clips.
But the way you sing on those clips, there is indeed no need to change any vowels.
However if you are singing metallic in the high part of the voice, it is a different story.
Just to be clear, here is how the vowels should be modified according to CVT:
(all in the high part of the voice, men above C1/women above C2)
Curbing:
All vowels are possible, but some are more difficult, while others are very difficult namely 'E' (Let) and 'O' (Low)
The easiest ones are: 'I' (sing) 'U' (hungry) & 'O' (woman)
Overdrive:
Only 'E' (Let) & 'O' (Low) are possible.
If you are very good at overdrive, it is possible to stray a little from that rule.
Edge:
Only 'A' (And), 'E' (Let), 'I' (Sing) & 'E' (Herb) are possible.
Again if you are very experienced in edge, it can vary a little
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PopMusicChick
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 397
Location: Malmö, Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ok now I agree with you, it's probably true when you go in the high part of the voice you really need to sing those vowels that are required for each mode! Maybe I just mix up with consonants.. or what it's called.. like p, t, s, k... and so on!
I don't completely understand what you mean that I don't sing with metallic sound. But I can agree that I maybe don't have a very metallic voice right now because I just learned the "Estill-belting" since October til now. And now I can today hit a G5 in belting. Well, I dunno if I hit in Edge or Curbing! I think I do different everytime! But If I hit that, Am I not metallic or? 
btw, here's a clip of me hitting an Eb5 (I think) from 1.20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u9MwXX1PNk ... please have a look and see if I'm doin curbing or edge? And if it's metallic or not? |
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mungfjeld
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 418
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hi PMC
First about the new clip, my hands off to your performance -at 8 in the morning 
Yes I can hear that it is not perfect, but thank you for sharing, yes it is an E5 -not Eb5 in Edge, well done.
That is in CVT terms an E2 in edge.
| PMC wrote: | | I don't completely understand what you mean that I don't sing with metallic sound |
I mean on the 3 earlier clips, (Winter wonderland, At last, I turn to you) you sing mostly in the middle part of your voice, and use a lot of curbing, which is metallic.
You only sing a few notes in the low end of the high part, and they are all in neutral.
I reread your post, and I agree completely, and think what you say is very important!
It is just that I don't think you put enough emphasis on the vowel-modifications necessary in the high part.
It is like you neglect them, and my guess is that it is because you are not used to singing entire lines of lyrics in your high part...
That is not so unusual, since women tend to sing relatively lower than men do.
And for us men (who have attempted tenor songs) the need to modify the vowels is crucial. |
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PopMusicChick
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 397
Location: Malmö, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hey again!
Oh E5! Than I practised lower before when I checked it out :O! ANYWAY!
Yeah It's like, in the clip it feels like I sing lots of Curbing, where it doesn't fit to! I think I should try more Overdrivish/edge or yeah u know! the FULLMETALLIC MODES 
Oh yeah in those clips I don't really use Overdrive or Edge in any of those clips!
Oh I get it know! I didn't mean that the vowels aren't important. But nmaybe I wasn't clear or make I made up my mind again. But what I mean form NOW, is that the vowels are important in the high part of the voice. ofcourse! but what I mean is that if you sing the word "sing", which the vowel in that word is an curbing vowel, but want's a overdrive sound. You try to sing it sEHng, instead of sIng! Do you understand what I mean?
Just one another question. I think it's easy to sing curbing from around G4-A4 and down, but when i go upwards, it feels like the sound doesn't come out from my mouth and it doesn't hurt but it's laborious! What should I do to release this tension? SHould I think more overdrive with a lower volume? than I end up in Curbing?
That's also true mungfjeld. I'm not really used to sing so much in my high part of the voice! But I'm working on it! |
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mungfjeld
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 418
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| PopMusicChick wrote: | | I think it's easy to sing curbing from around G4-A4 and down, but when i go upwards, it feels like the sound doesn't come out from my mouth and it doesn't hurt but it's laborious! |
Maybe you should try raising your larynx, I have noticed that you like to darken your curbing, (nothing wrong with that), but maybe that is what makes curbing difficult on higher notes 
Edit: you can easily use dark color curbing in the middle part, but it is more difficult in the high part.
So it can be good to practice light color curbing in the high part in the beginning.
Try to go for a light color on vowel 'I' or 'UH', smile & broad tongue will help you raise the larynx.
You Can try to sing with a more girlish sound around A4 and see if you can go higher, remember the hold.
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PopMusicChick
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 397
Location: Malmö, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you mungfjeld! I'm gonna try out that!
Yeah I have a tendency that I darken it too much, I actually don't want a dark curbing but down there in the lower part... of the middle part of my voice... I find it comfortable sometimes to sing dark... but I when I listen to a recording, I just don't like it! For example my candyman performance. in the beginning, it's like... I'm too dark 
At least we agree on that about the vowels thing now At least, I'm a very big CVT-fan! |
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jonpall56
Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 143
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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On page 231 in the new CVT book, in the chapter "Studio and live techniques", Catherine says that when you sing live with amplification, you generally have to sing louder than in a studio and perhaps the best method is to use only overdrive and edge. She even thinks it's safer to use those 2 modes in that situation than curbing, simply because of the volume from the band that you have to match up with.
This is in contrast to what guys here, have been saying about various youtube clips of metal singers screaming their lungs out supposedly in curbing. I still don't really believe that David Coverdale and Sammy Hagar sing their choruses in just curbing. It always sounds like mostly overdrive and edge to me. Again, I don't mean any offence by it. I'd just like to know, if those guys aren't screaming, what does a scream sound like?
I'm not losing any sleep over this but I'm going to practise overdrive and curbing a bit for the next following days and see if song like f.ex. Pride (in the name of love) and "Cryin'" don't sound better in the full metallic modes, when sung with loud band.
*edit* Actually, the best advice on all of this is the one I received from a very good singer (whom you might know) on another forum about using the CVT modes are guidelines and help and then just experimenting with all these sounds and seeing/hearing for myself which I like best. Maybe I'll end up being a curbing tenor, even live, who knows?  |
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PopMusicChick
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 397
Location: Malmö, Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think I forgot to ask a question about finding curbing in the higher part of the voice!
After F4-G4, I usually get constriction, but it doesn't hurt! It just feels uncomfortable to sing and the voice sounds like "muffled"!
Could it be that I both lower the larynx a bit too much, and force my voice too much that I sing kinda with an Overdrive-volume on a Curbing-vowel?
Just curious, I did record myself yesterday, and it sounds like my voice is in a box!
To me it feels like I must sing more "I", "UH", and "O" already in the higher part of the middle part of the voice! =/ |
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jonpall56
Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 143
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| If you force your larynx too high or too low, you can hurt yourself, yes. If it hurts, it might be too low. |
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mungfjeld
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 418
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| PopMusicChick wrote: | | After F4-G4, I usually get constriction, but it doesn't hurt! It just feels uncomfortable to sing and the voice sounds like "muffled"! |
Yes constrictions don't necessarily hurt, but it hurts if you force the voice through the constritions.
It's great that you can detect the constrictions and keep from forcing them 
You can release the constrictions temporarily by breathing in like you do before a yawn.
But they come because you don't do the mode correctly, so they will come back when you try to sing something that is too difficult
Go slowly, find curbing where it is easy, then sing up one semitone at a time, when the voice get muffled, you must go back down to the easy note.
PATIENCE
That's what works for me...
Good luck
| PopMusicChick wrote: | | To me it feels like I must sing more "I", "UH", and "O" already in the higher part of the middle part of the voice! |
Sounds like a good idea |
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Jadamgo
Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 642
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:48 am Post subject: |
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If your voice gets muffled, also pay attention to your mouth opening, and to avoiding constrictions related to the jaw and lips. A great idea would be to use I, UH, and O starting in the middle of the voice for now, and also use a big wide smile but not so much opening of the mouth. Twang and high larynx, I think, were already mentioned. What can also help is broad tongue -- like, seriously broad tongue! Curbing is really hard and muffled-sounding if the back of the tongue forms a "u" shape, with a "valley" in the middle of it. This can be corrected with high larynx and broad tongue.
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Everything on my posts is speculation or suggestion. I'm NOT a voice teacher -- I'm a voice student. |
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PopMusicChick
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 397
Location: Malmö, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hey!
I'm very thankful for he advice and it helped a lot! Tho it's very hard to achieve it immediately but I gotta work on it! |
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Adakadabra
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| jonpall56 wrote: | At the risk of a) sounding stupid and b) getting cruicified by saying this on the CVI forum, why not throw the notion of modes out of CVI and just focus on vowels, the basic principles of singing, how to create certain sounds, how to reduce breathiness, which vowels have a shouty sound, how to twang for a witch-like sound, etc., because it seems that most singers switch between modes all the time when they're singing. Why then, is it so helpful having them in the first place to describe the process of singing?
Also, the most common modes, according to CVT people, regardless of genre, seem to be overdrive on the low notes, curbing on the high notes and some type of neutral on the very high notes (which is how they describe the SLS/SS method, actually, but that's another story).
I don't mean any disrespect, but I'm still not 100% sold on the CVT modes. It seems to me that you could, in theory, throw them out and instead discusss vowel modification (which happens when you switch between modes, amongs other things such as the "hold" or the "bite"), how to reduce breathiness (basically curbing), how to twang (basically edge) ... and the rest should be simply the singer feeling the song - which might cause a curbing sound or an overdrive sound or a breathy sound or distortion or whatever.
I just have the feeling that CVT is overcomplicating singing by the introduction of the modes. And I own the CVT book and have read it many times. I'm sure that you guys think the opposite, that it simplifies things. But if you check out the various vocal forums on the net, the discussions here seem to be the most complex and most confusing, even after you understand the modes.
I'm probably going to kick myself in the butt in the future for having said this and be CVT's number one fan, but I'm not sold yet on the complexity of the modes.
Please don't kill me, I know Jiu Jitsu |
Because if you learn each mode cleanly, you can sing safer in it. And what's just as important to mention is that you can be safer in the gray zones afterwards! And four modes are easier to remember than all the vowels. Besides; most singers use mostly one or two modes.
But I do actually agree that CVT should teach gray-zones like curbing/neutral(soft, but chesty) among others. It's an advanced addition to good vocal technique in my humble opinion.
Oh, and I think that CVT's mixed sound, curbing is easier to grasp than my previous teacher's attempt to make me go in between chest voice and falsetto. All notes are possible to sing in curbing and neutral, thus it needs some more distinction. But though I'm extremely happy that I learned this straightforward technique that seems to have everything except gray-zones I don't mock other good singing teachers for that reason. It's just that they're very, very far from standardized.
Another thing about CVT is that generally all qualities and actually all modes can be sung in all parts of the voice. (except overdrive) This differs greatly from all other techniques I know of except to some degree estill. It doesn't have an ideal sound. It has healthy methods of sound production. Grouping the vowels into modes seems pretty wise. It's just that some in between areas can seem like modes too. In overdrive-/curbing mix, Ah is a very easy vowel for me. I used to sing in that coordination all the time.
But again.. I do agree that CVT shouldn't be so nazi on mode mixing for advanced singers. It's just that it is that; advanced! You don't need to sing every vowel in one single mode. But it is a very good foundation.
Okay, sorry for my rambling. I hope you can forgive me! x) I'm on this forum to expand my own knowledge, while trying to help others. So I use it as kind of a singing blog of some sort too.
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CVT-addict.. Excuse me for ranting! |
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Adakadabra
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| PopMusicChick wrote: | Hey again!
Oh E5! Than I practised lower before when I checked it out :O! ANYWAY!
Yeah It's like, in the clip it feels like I sing lots of Curbing, where it doesn't fit to! I think I should try more Overdrivish/edge or yeah u know! the FULLMETALLIC MODES
Oh yeah in those clips I don't really use Overdrive or Edge in any of those clips!
Oh I get it know! I didn't mean that the vowels aren't important. But nmaybe I wasn't clear or make I made up my mind again. But what I mean form NOW, is that the vowels are important in the high part of the voice. ofcourse! but what I mean is that if you sing the word "sing", which the vowel in that word is an curbing vowel, but want's a overdrive sound. You try to sing it sEHng, instead of sIng! Do you understand what I mean?
Just one another question. I think it's easy to sing curbing from around G4-A4 and down, but when i go upwards, it feels like the sound doesn't come out from my mouth and it doesn't hurt but it's laborious! What should I do to release this tension? SHould I think more overdrive with a lower volume? than I end up in Curbing?
That's also true mungfjeld. I'm not really used to sing so much in my high part of the voice! But I'm working on it! |
Off-topic: Girls who sing in a rough overdrive is sexy! B)
Anyways.. You'd need to modify I's to Eh's in the high register, yes. But in medium range a mix of Eh and I will probably be enough. But practising with Eh's is smart to reach the center of O.D. and not a gray zone.
Some people can usually think overdrive'ish on curbing-vowels to get curbing at first. But beware so you don't turn into just another over-blower! Experiment with it. I find curbing easiest in the high/very high register if I try to sing in edge. If I want a sweeter curbing-sound in the lower half of the high register I stay slightly closer to neutral while lightening the sound color.
Experimentation and/or a good teacher is important!
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CVT-addict.. Excuse me for ranting! |
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