New uses of the CVT terminology

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New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Mungfield » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:05 pm

Hi

For anyone interested, here is a clip found on another forum where the method TVS is discussed.

The method uses terminology somewhat similar to CVT, but the terms that are similar don't have the exact same meaning.

Scroll down to post #28 and watch the clip from around 6:00

http://www.themodernvocalistworld.com/index.php?/topic/7512-the-four-pillars-of-singing/
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby pabrah » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:47 am

Hi,

first off, there is a big thread on this program/school if you search for it on this forum. Just saying in case you wanted to know more info or wanted to post questions there since Rob has been known to post there.


Second, the program was the first I've ever bought and I still have it on my computer. I haven't gotten the latest update, but mine's updated enough to where the CVT modes are included. I have no idea if he's REALLY overhauled that section, so if he reads this I'm sorry if I post any inaccurate info, but it's definitely not the exact same as the actual CVT modes as you said, although I'm pretty sure he says it is. The big reason I say that (and Kaare can come clarify this) is that Rob equates modes= using certain vowels. So being in curbing is as easy as singing the i vowel, and doing a transition from overdrive to curbing is as easy as singing a transition from eh to i. I don't think it's that easy, as almost everybody here would attest to, since tons of people (including myself) have posted having trouble getting a mode down. If it IS as easy as being veeerry exact with the vowels, well then that's awesome, since I guess I'll just religiously work on saying each vowel perfectly! But I don't think it is, at least to the extent Rob has it in the book as he doesn't go into "how to find edge" etc, he just says "use this vowel" instead.

I do like how in depth his program is, and how he's trying to create the ultimate home vocal program. Though I agree with everyone including CVI who says it definitely is best to get personal lessons, and then have exercises/a program given to you to practice based on your troubles and personal goals/style, not everyone can always afford consistent lessons and would like to practice with something in the interim.
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Mungfield » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:17 pm

pabrah wrote:t's definitely not the exact same as the actual CVT modes as you said, although I'm pretty sure he says it is. The big reason I say that (and Kaare can come clarify this) is that Rob equates modes= using certain vowels. So being in curbing is as easy as singing the i vowel, and doing a transition from overdrive to curbing is as easy as singing a transition from eh to i.

I don't think it's that easy, as almost everybody here would attest to, since tons of people (including myself) have posted having trouble getting a mode down.


Yes. In CVT an acoustic mode is more than a vowel, it also implies a certain level of compression. Thus, a given vowel is associated with more than one acoustic mode. Examples are: I (sit) which is an Edge as well as a Curbing vowel, but can also be sung in Neutral. Then there's Eh, which is an Overdrive as well as an Edge vowel, but can also be sung in Neutral.
However, if you pay close attention to his demonstrations and his explanations in the clip, you will see that some vowels are in fact associated with more than one mode.

You will also notice that in his system Oh is a Curbing vowel. Furthermore, you will notice that in his demonstration, Neutral is Edge.

His book lists:

Edging vowels: Eh (E) A (æ)
Curbing vowels: Uh (Λ) Ou (O, but diphthong)
Neutral vowels: Ah (a:)

His demonstration is a little different:

Edge includes a vowel,which is somewhere between Oh and Uh (O and œ), or possibly a transition from one to the other.
Curbing includes both Uh (Λ) and Uh (œ) as well as something close to CVT "OE" (ø) and Oh (O in overdrive) -it seems more full-metallic than half-metallic, is there any CVT curbing at all?
Neutral includes Ah (a:) and Uh (œ) but is sung in Edge.
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby pabrah » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:12 pm

Mungfield wrote:
pabrah wrote:t's definitely not the exact same as the actual CVT modes as you said, although I'm pretty sure he says it is. The big reason I say that (and Kaare can come clarify this) is that Rob equates modes= using certain vowels. So being in curbing is as easy as singing the i vowel, and doing a transition from overdrive to curbing is as easy as singing a transition from eh to i.

I don't think it's that easy, as almost everybody here would attest to, since tons of people (including myself) have posted having trouble getting a mode down.


Yes. In CVT an acoustic mode is more than a vowel, it also implies a certain level of compression. Thus, a given vowel is associated with more than one acoustic mode. Examples are: I (sit) which is an Edge as well as a Curbing vowel, but can also be sung in Neutral. Then there's Eh, which is an Overdrive as well as an Edge vowel, but can also be sung in Neutral.
However, if you pay close attention to his demonstrations and his explanations in the clip, you will see that some vowels are in fact associated with more than one mode.

You will also notice that in his system Oh is a Curbing vowel. Furthermore, you will notice that in his demonstration, Neutral is Edge.

His book lists:

Edging vowels: Eh (E) A (æ)
Curbing vowels: Uh (Λ) Ou (O, but diphthong)
Neutral vowels: Ah (a:)

His demonstration is a little different:

Edge includes a vowel,which is somewhere between Oh and Uh (O and œ), or possibly a transition from one to the other.
Curbing includes both Uh (Λ) and Uh (œ) as well as something close to CVT "OE" (ø) and Oh (O in overdrive) -it seems more full-metallic than half-metallic, is there any CVT curbing at all?
Neutral includes Ah (a:) and Uh (œ) but is sung in Edge.


I'll have to listen, as I'll admit I only jumped to the section to see if he had changed his definitions compared to what I knew him for, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's none. I believe either here or on that forum people discussed him or his teaching's modes, and I think it was an Overdrive->Edge or ,maybe Edge-like neutral.
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Mungfield » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:40 pm

I know they did. But he is primarily using Edge. Of course there is some Overdrive when the vowel demands it. He speaks and sings primarily in the full-metallic modes.
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby eggplantbren » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:37 am

Haha, one of the best things about CVT is that when someone says something to you, you at least know what they're saying. Guess that's not true anymore. :roll:
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Mungfield » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:25 am

Yes. And this new CVT terminology was created to avoid ambiguities associated with terms like "head voice", chest voice etc. To be sure, it is only an issue if singers combine the two methods, or in communication between CVT and TVS students.
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Dino » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:44 am

Is there any scientific evidence to his claim that Curbing is "backward resonating" and Edge is "forward resonating"? I can definitely relate to the feeling that Curbing is "restrained", "holding back" and Edge/OD being ín-your-face-ish which makes these claims seem to make sense on an intuitive level. In fact one thing I am missing in CVT is that they don't explain too much where resonance happens, or is supposed to be felt, for the various modes. Granted, they do leave it to the student to make his/her own mental images of it.

As for the claim that Neutral is "in the middle" between Curbing and Edge/OD, it makes no sense to me at all.

Just my two cents,
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/Dino
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Kaare » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:00 am

Hi guys - I tried the link but "I didnt have permission to watch it".
Anyway, from what I know there are certain similarities between the 2 techniques (but hey...why wouldnt there be as they both concern singing...) and yet again not so many :-)

Vowels are a big part of shaping the tract for certain frequencies but its not the whole story, as we can do all vowels in Neutral.
There are other factors like air pressure, closed phase of the cords and the acoustics taking place in the vocal tract to consider.

But Im looking forward to see the presentation of whatever it is :-)

Regards
Kaare
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Dino » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:29 pm

Kaare wrote:Hi guys - I tried the link but "I didnt have permission to watch it".
Anyway, f


Yeah, it was a drag getting to watch that video. I had to sign up for the discussion board. But it was just a link to youtube video, so I dug it out for ya: http://youtu.be/0QBvfx1f9mI.

I'm really curious about comments to my question above, namely: does it make sense to think of different modes as "forward" or "backward" resonating? I see a great deal of teachers that teach modes this way (or their fuzzy notion of modes). For example here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH36YN1 ... e=youtu.be

The rationale seems to be that "belting" (probably edge) is "forward" resonating and "falsetto" (probably neutral) is backward resonating. So you should be able to find edge by "directing resonance forwards". Then again, lots of teachers tell you to pretend you are directing you voice to the back of their mouth. Actually, what I think they are teaching is controlling your soft palate and twang.

/Dino
/Dino
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby Mungfield » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:30 am

I don't know about front and back resonance, but here is some information about front, back and mid vowels and the difference between CVT and TVS acoustic modes.

The relationship between vowels and acoustic modes in Robert's program is very straight forward as he groups the vowels pretty much like this:

Front vowels: Edging vowels

Mid vowels: Neutral vowels. (his demonstration is not CVT neutral)

Back vowels: Curbing vowels. (his demonstration is not CVT curbing only)

The relationship between CVT vowels and CVT modes is different.

Curbing has one from each group:

Front vowel: I (sit)

Mid vowel: Uh (hungry)

Back vowel: Oh (woman)

Overdrive has both a front and a back vowel:

Front vowel: Eh (stay)

Back vowel: OH (so)

Edge has only front vowels: A (and), Eh (stay), I (sit) and OE (herb) (pretty much the same as TVS "edging vowels)

Best regards
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby ivanlagru » Sat May 30, 2015 6:51 am

Robert Lunte has been active in this forum before, I recall him getting into arguments with the CVT'ers here.
Seems like a very marketing-driven individual, and if I may, not my favorite singer (at least better than the 'how to sing like' guy from youtube who just sounds like he's creaking his way around things all day).
My two cents. :)
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Re: New uses of the CVT terminology

Postby benny82 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:25 am

Just some clarification on those resonances. I use both the TVS and CVT book and they actually go well with each other.

The resonances front and back are not about placement, they are about "resonance", which means the place in your mouth where the "acoustic load" is mainly located.

So what does that mean? In singing we make basically all vowels with a "dome-like" shape of the tongue, which means that the tip of the tongue is down in the area of the lower front teeth and the back of the tongue is up in the area of the roof of the mouth.

This tongue shape divides the mouth into two areas. The "frontal area" before the back of the tongue (below the hard palate) and the "back area" behind the back of the tongue (below the soft palate).

Now its simple: "frontal resonance" means that you feel most of the acoustic load in the front area, "backward resonance" means that you feel it in the back area.

But how can you experience this? Really the best way to experience this as a guy familiar with CVT is to use the vowel /IH/ as in "sit". From CVT you know that this vowel belongs to Edge and Curbing at the same time. But what is the difference in terms of resonance? The difference is that if you sing that vowel in Edge (apply distinct twang to it), you will feel a strong "buzz" in the forward area (your teeth/hard palate should buzz), but if you sing it in Curbing (apply the hold) you feel more energy in the backward area (around the soft palate, behind the back of the tongue).

So what about neutral? Neutral has a balanced resonance. For neutral vowels the tongue is quite far away from the roof of the mouth (it has the lowest twang/narrowing). This kind of "connects" the two resonant spaces and makes the sound resonate in a more balanced way between the two.

So what about Overdrive OH being more back? Overdrive OH is created with the tongue more retracted (more backwards) than EH but the resonance (acoustic load) is still in the space in front of the back of the tongue.

Thus, you can generally say
Overdrive/Edge = forward resonant
neutral = balanced resonant
Curbing = backward resonant

So why all that fuzz about the resonance? To understand that you have to know that TVS focuses a lot one one certain mode, and this mode is actually metal-like neutral. All of the high notes in TVS (from something like E4 on) are sung in that mode. A big part of the program is to teach you to sing in neutral on high notes but make it sound as if you would sing in a metallic mode.

This has the advantage that high notes become less demanding on support and you can switch vowels way easier. A switch from a Curbing vowel to an Overdrive vowel in TVS is really just that, a vowel switch, because you are actually singing in neutral, where all vowels are allowed. This means that the focus moves more towards the acoustics of the mode as opposed to the mode as a whole setup and thus just the resonances are considered.

Full metallic modes are also taught in TVS but as an "advanced stuff" and not as the central type of singing.

Metal-like neutral is really as science in itself and it falls a bit short in the CVT book. If you listen to Geoff Tate (Queensryche) for example he uses almost exclusively metal-like neutral throughout his whole range, but he still sounds quite powerful because he always adjusts the vowels to sound "metal-like". And he has lots of agility in the high range because of using neutral.

TVS is perfectly in line with CVT, its just a different point of view reducing the mode to their acoustics. Rob actually developed those modes with the aid of a CVT student.
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