How long can you hold a note?

Share your knowledge or questions about vocal technique: Belting, high notes, power, hoarseness, distortion, support, Curbing, sound color, singers nodules, microphones, vibrato..... DOES NOT HAVE TO BE "COMPLETE VOCAL TECHNIQUE" RELATED - All kinds of vocal technique posts are WELCOME :)

Moderator: Sebastian Kraft CVI

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:53 pm

Yeah, the volume was pretty low because it was a bit late so I didn't wanna make too much noice :D But the same thing happens with louder volumes (4-6) as well. The creaking/diplophonia is then just much more louder.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y8uz66gf1qs81 ... o.mp3?dl=0

If I do a loud (7-8) glissando my voice does find also a way to make a clear sound in the higher range without it being a Flageolet, in case Flageolet can't be achieved in louder volumes than 1-2 below high C. But the sound isn't very pretty, it's unstable and I haven't managed to make it usable, neither make it any louder or add metal to it. It is neither completely connected to the rest of my voice. One of the reasons for the break is that the volume doesn't increase enough, but I really shout from the top of my lungs. And that doesn't explain why I have also problems with Neutral.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xrxjyihi1wc17 ... H.mp3?dl=0

Here are also the Overdrive and Edge examples in the 3rd octave you asked for :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/54oshr05soe0tfu/OdEd.mp3?dl=0

Ps. Just realized I should've done the glissandos much more slower because now my voice kinda skips the creaking/diplophonia area. But I'll provide the audios later.
highnotemaniac
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 am

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Mungfield » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:22 pm

First off, I can understand why this is a difficult problem to solve. I really wouldn't know if it has to do with nodules, but I will say that I have made similar sounds myself without nodules. This was not involuntary though, it was an experiment.

To me, it doesn't sound as though your vocal folds are being "blown apart" by too much air. There is still adduction when the strange breaking appears. It sounds more like a coordination problem at the level of the vibratory mechanism.

This is something that CVT doesn't talk about. I think there are two reasons for that:
1. It is considered to have little value as a pedagogical tool.
2 If the techniques are used correctly the vibratory mechanism should automatically do what it's supposed to do.

If number two is correct, (and if you don't have nodules) then there must be some technical problem, (surprise), which can be explained in CVT terms.

Again, I don't believe that you are blowing too much air.
Based on how I have managed to produce similar sounds, and based on the fact that there is adduction during the breaking, I would say that you are probably not using enough air.

However, I don't believe that an adjustment of the support will instantly solve your problem. I think you'll have to work for some time to make the folds work normally in that part of the range, as it seems that your vibratory mechanism has gotten used to this irregularity (muscles memory).

Best regards
Mungfield
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:26 pm

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:43 pm

As far as I know, CVT doesn't support the theory of Laryngeal Vibratory Mechanisms. My previous teacher showed me a couple of documents/slides from CVI about the comparision between CVT and the M0-M3 mechanisms. Also somewhere here in the forum Kaare has stated that they are "polluted terms". Meaning that CVT finds them anatomically incorrect.

http://www.estudiosfonicos.cchs.csic.es ... anisms.pdf

According to this paper the main difference between the mechanisms M1 and M2 is the contact quotinent and the change in EGG signal, which means only a change of a mode in CVT terms. According to the CVT research site the contact quotined is somewhat the same in metallic modes so I would say that M1 corresponds with metal and M2 with Neutral and probably sometimes with male Flageolet. Sadly, there aren't any audio samples available which makes that paper totally useless.

But whether the Vibratory Mechanism hold true or not, they aren't going to provide any tools for solving my problem.

The best theory, I've heard so far, has been suggested by two of my teachers. They were wondering whether my voice has an ability to produce also a loud Flageolet below high C (starting around from F4). At least it meets some of the Flageolet characteristics: a break, a split/diplophonia and inability to increase the volume. It's also interesting that there is a break between the Flageolet and the "loud Flageolet". And when we add my full voice to the equation, there's two ways of achieving a distinct break with my voice. WTF? :D I'm not sure whether nodules can cause this kind of behavior.

Here are some slower glissandos with Overdrive and Neutral. With Overdrive (and sometimes with Edge) I can make the transition pretty indistinguishable except for the loss of metal of course.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0zbmq0n2nvr4h ... s.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/70nxi8388z505 ... s.mp3?dl=0
highnotemaniac
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 am

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Mungfield » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:36 pm

highnotemaniac wrote:But whether the Vibratory Mechanism hold true or not, they aren't going to provide any tools for solving my problem.


Maybe not.

highnotemaniac wrote:The best theory, I've heard so far, has been suggested by two of my teachers. They were wondering whether my voice has an ability to produce also a loud Flageolet below high C (starting around from F4).


That makes a lot of sense, especially when we think about the vibratory mechanism. I believe that pitch and compression are both related to the CT/TA ratio. I don't think that anyone knows anything for sure though.

I believe that you are transitioning from a CT/TA mix into a CT only configuration. I think this is more or lesss what the teachers have suggested. But it doesn't work in that pitch range as CVT also states.

When I produced similar sounds, I was aiming for the least amount of CT as well as TA activity. I did this by starting with a very quiet creak and then raising the volume until I got a tone. When playing around with that, I was able to produce sort of a combination of pitch and creak, which sounded very similar to your break range. I also used very little air flow for that.


One question is: How did you manage to do it in the first place? Have you been practicing based on some sort of Chest/head program, trying to "thin out" and "bridge" and all that?

My bet would be to be less careful, to push more, to try to pull chest higher if you will.

One thing that would be interesting is to hear if you can shout in overdrive above f4. Most people are able to do that intuitively. What happens when you do that?
(after ruling out nodules of course)

I'm also guessing that glissandos are only going to perpetuate the problem. I would go for single notes.

Best regards
Mungfield
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:26 pm

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:16 pm

Mungfield wrote:How did you manage to do it in the first place? Have you been practicing based on some sort of Chest/head program, trying to "thin out" and "bridge" and all that?


Well, I found CVT quite early on when I started, so I didn't get too much involved with SLS or SS type of methods. Of course, I'm familiar with their point of view and have tried their exercises many times. But I have always found CVT much more logical and that way helpful.

It has been a long ago when I started to learn how to produce those notes. But as far as I remember, they were a result of practising Overdrive and just trying shout the high notes. It does indeed feel a sort of a release.

Mungfield wrote:
I'm also guessing that glissandos are only going to perpetuate the problem. I would go for single notes.


Glissandos, singular notes, the result is the same. When practicing singular notes (which is what I've mostly been doing) I can hold on to the tension and Overdrive with more concentration but that only prevents the pitch from rising and invites constrictions. And eventually the break appears, no matter what I do.

Mungfield wrote:One thing that would be interesting is to hear if you can shout in overdrive above f4. Most people are able to do that intuitively. What happens when you do that?


My teachers have also suggested trying that. But I'm pretty sure I have never done that during my life after puberty so it doesn't come naturally to me. Unlike my father when he watches sport. When somebody scores in something it's usually followed by super loud, wall-shaking Overdrive around A4. So unfair...

Mungfield wrote: I believe that pitch and compression are both related to the CT/TA ratio. I don't think that anyone knows anything for sure though.

I believe that you are transitioning from a CT/TA mix into a CT only configuration.


Well, I have read many studies both, for and against that theory. But still the primary function for the CT muscle is elongation of the vocal cords and the TA muscle works as an antagonist. Like the flexors and extensors in our other body parts. Whereas the LCA and IA muscles are the main adductors/compressors of the vocal cords.

So in order the pitch to rise the relative tension/contraction between the TA and CT should be around 1. There are many studies pointing out that when the pitch rises the tension in both muscles is increased. So I don't believe there's such thing as "CT only configuration". One thing hindering the pitch raise could be the fact that I'm tensing the TA too much. Though, one of my teachers stated that CT is always the stronger one.

TA muscle is sometimes considered as two different muscles, thyroarytenoid muscularis and thyrovocalis the latter of which controls the adduction as well. So one theory could be that when I let the pitch rise, adjust the relative tension, the vocalis muscle is relaxed in the prosess causing the creaking and breaking. This fits the description of the high part of the voice where the vibrations are focused in the inner edges of the vocal cords. Again, maybe nodules could cause this malfunction.
Last edited by highnotemaniac on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
highnotemaniac
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 am

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Mungfield » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:30 pm

Alright, the CT/TA stuff is probably not very helpful.

I'd just like to sum up what my impression is:

It was really useful to hear your clips. Obviously your voice works well in the 3rd octave. Your break is indeed strange. But I am familiar with this phonation and I associate it with, among other things, a low air-flow.

You were wondering if you were blowing too much air. I believe that support has something to do with this. Only, I don't believe you are blowing too much air. On the contrary, I think you are using too little.

Some people have gotten the impression that more support work means holding back the air more. I think that recent discussions have shown that this is a gross simplification and outright wrong.

Also, I withdraw my suggestion of working on the notes just below the break. I don't believe you are going to benefit from that in your particular situation.

Let us know what the doctor says.

Best regards
Mungfield
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:26 pm

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:25 pm

Well, actually one of my teachers had another kind of an approach. He told me that some people response better to the idea of blowing air in a controlled manner than holding it back. My other teacher also criticized the CVT's expression of "holding back the air". So maybe CVT ought to rephrase that.

Anyhow, we worked with that a lot. I would say that my muscle memory already reacts to higher notes by increasing the air pressure but my vocal cords don't response to it by providing enough compression. Probably due to their inability to do the fine adjustments (contracting the vocalis muscle separately?) without inviting constrictions. Nodules could play a part in that.

Here's an attempt to do an E-major scale in Neutral. When the air pressure increases on the higher notes the vocal cords are being blown apart and eventually the pitch is lost.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qk3gpcxscacq2 ... 1.mp3?dl=0

Another option is keeping the air flow steady which gives me the creaking/diplophonia.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndsteg9r85yrx ... 2.mp3?dl=0

This should pretty much prove the fact that supporting/adjusting the air flow won't necessarily solve my problem.

When I try to increase the air pressure for the high notes while doing Overdrive the result is forcing which sounds like Grunting. It doesn't feel that good either :D

Anyway, I'll make a post when I get a diagnosis.

EDIT: Then there's also the possibility to change to Flageolet of course :D

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9oun8egodza4 ... t.mp3?dl=0
highnotemaniac
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 am

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby phale » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:45 am

Interesting discussion, thank you! I'll offer some thoughts that came to my mind, but please remember that I'm just an amateur.

highnotemaniac wrote:Here's an attempt to do an E-major scale in Neutral. When the air pressure increases on the higher notes the vocal cords are being blown apart and eventually the pitch is lost.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qk3gpcxscacq2 ... 1.mp3?dl=0

I think you're on right track with this one staying in Neutral without any flageolet or similar. You just need to try to make the high notes a little less airy, maybe by trying to hold them back more (might need more support meaning slower movement in abdomen) and/or by adding some twang. Be not afraid of the increasing volume, high Neutral is not that quiet. (And if it goes to some metal-like Neutral or even medium metal mode that's fine too.)

highnotemaniac wrote:Another option is keeping the air flow steady which gives me the creaking/diplophonia.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndsteg9r85yrx ... 2.mp3?dl=0

To me this sounds like a change to a some kind of flageolet-like coordination through creaking.

It would be interesting to hear the break between these two 'flageolets' you were talking about to try to guess what's happening with them.
phale
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Kaare » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:39 am

Hi Again Highnotemaniac.
I hear nothing unusual in your links.
The notes produced in the first is not diplophonia but mere Creaking, which simply means that something in the vocal tract doesnt correspond correctly to the airflow etc.

The break in the 2. link is merely a change between 2 modes and is very common.

All of it is solved by technique and by taking control over the voice.

My spontanious thoughts are: Higher support value in the transition and twang.
Maybe read about transitions in the book.

In the thread someone talked about the phrasing "Holding back the breath" and that CVI should consider changing it.
I don´t agree as this is exactly what we are doing. There´s a clear distinction between "holding one´s breath" and "holding it back"...

Hope it makes sense.
Regards
Kaare
Kaare
CVI Teacher
CVI Teacher
 
Posts: 5397
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:15 pm

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:53 pm

Kaare wrote:The break in the 2. link is merely a change between 2 modes and is very common.


Okey, now I'm confused again. So you're saying I'm breaking from Neutral to Neutral? Anyway, the sound after the break is not what I'm looking for since it sounds comical, chipmunky, not my real voice and it doesn't really connect to my normal voice unless I don't do very specific fine adjustments.

Adam Lambert - Mad World Live At Regis & Kelly Show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Er9V7FqL6U

This is the sound that I'm looking for (starts at 0.15). And if you listen the second verse and chorus as well you can clearly hear it's very well connected to his metallic modes. And of course, achieving that voice quality with my "chipmunk mode" (whatever it is) isn't possible.

Kaare wrote:My spontanious thoughts are: Higher support value in the transition and twang.


What does higher support value mean in practise? Do I need to use less or more air? If you listen to my first link you can hear the cords are being blown apart, probably due to excess air. In the second link the creaking appears when I'm keeping the air flow somewhat steady and you said my vocal tract doesn't correspond correctly to the airflow. So what I'm exactly suppose to do?
highnotemaniac
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 am

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby phale » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:31 pm

highnotemaniac wrote:What does higher support value mean in practise? Do I need to use less or more air?

Support can be thought as a battle between a force pulling lower abdominal inwards and an imaginary counterforce trying to oppose this movement. Higher support means stronger counterforce resulting in slower movement and less air escaping out of the lungs. But the inward motion should always be on the winning side and never stop completely.
phale
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:04 pm

And that's exactly how I control the airflow. It just took me for a while to realize the movement behind it which is now all clear to me, thanks to Mugfield. On singular note I can increase the air flow (the movement in the abdomen is faster) or decrease it (the movement is slower). I understand the balance between forcing and creaking/blocking the air flow. But as said in the previous posts, I can't find the balance on higher notes. So that's why I suspected some kind of closure problem. But I try to work on that, let's see what happens.
highnotemaniac
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 am

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Mungfield » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:17 pm

phale wrote:Higher support means stronger counterforce resulting in slower movement and less air escaping out of the lungs.

I wouldn't put it like that. A great effort may very well mean more air being forced out and it may also mean the opposite. It all depends on many factors. It's just not as simple as that. There are, as you say, opposing forces, so if each of those increase equally the outcome doesn't change. If one increases more than the others, the outcome changes. But it can go both ways, since they are opposing forces.
Of course, time is a factor also, and the urge of the diaphragm to relax is one of those forces.

Economy is what we want in the end, but when things are difficult, I think it may be useful to add more (uneconomical) effort, since this may give us more control.

Best regards
Mungfield
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:26 pm

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:48 pm

Hi!

I'd still like to get answers to the following:

Kaare wrote:The notes produced in the first is not diplophonia but mere Creaking, which simply means that something in the vocal tract doesnt correspond correctly to the airflow etc.


Is the right assumption that there's nothing wrong with the airflow (support) but with the setting in the vocal tract? Any tricks to correct this kind of behaviour?

highnotemaniac wrote:Then there's also the possibility to change to Flageolet of course :D

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9oun8egodza4 ... t.mp3?dl=0


Kaare wrote:The break in the 2. link is merely a change between 2 modes and is very common.


Which modes are in question exactly? I have been under the impression that this is a break between Neutral and Neutral + Flageolet.

Thanks!
highnotemaniac
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:11 am

Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby funkypou » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:07 pm

highnotemaniac wrote:
Kaare wrote:The break in the 2. link is merely a change between 2 modes and is very common.


Which modes are in question exactly?

If, according to Kaare, there's no flageolet, then the second mode is obviously Neutral. The first mode is probably some kind of uncentered Overdrive.

If you want to experience a siren with no break, I suggest that you try to do it only in Neutral. The less intuitive part is the low one as Neutral at this pitch is very quiet and one often wants to use Overdrive. Keep in mind that the sound of Neutral in the low part is different from the sound in the high part. I myself often think it's breathy even if it's not : it's just that it has a hollow sound while the high notes can be piercing.

Try the same siren making sure you start with Neutral. Use a very soft "Oo" or "Ee" and a very low volume in the low part. If you begin with a proper Neutral, you should be able to do your siren without a break.

The siren with a change of modes and no break is a more advanced technique so you might need more practice before succeeding in such a thing.
funkypou
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:40 pm
Location: France

PreviousNext

Return to Vocal Technique

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron