How long can you hold a note?

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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:08 pm

It definitely can't be Overdrive because the volume is too low and it has no metal. And if the sound after the break really is Neutral then also the CVT's analogy between Neutral and whispering/speaking quietly doesn't hold true. At least I wouldn't use that when whispering. It feels like a different way of producing sound compared to my "normal voice". One of my teacher stated that both of the sounds are Neutral and CVT doesn't make a distinction between them. So guess, that's how it is, but IMO they should be described separately since they have completely different sensations and can that way cause confusion. For example if you're trying to do a crescendo to metallic modes, the break happens only with the other. To me it seems that the lower you voice is (bigger vocal cords) the more distinct the difference is between these coordinations naturally. Of course everyone can learn to yodel and make the break more pronounced.

I'm gonna call the other one Neutral and the other one Falsetto.

So here's a Falsetto glissando funkypou asked me to perform. Very easy, since Falsetto cost like nothing until the very high part of the voice.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bd98a2f2bsbku ... o.mp3?dl=0

Here's the first line of Mad World sung in Neutral (the sound I'd like to be able to do in higher pitch.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t9opg2cvlp8ub8v/MWN.mp3?dl=0

And here's the same with Falsetto, which I don't like too much. It is mostly usable as an effect only. And of course you need it when doing vocal breaks. Unlike Neutral, Falsetto has a lower limit around C3-E3 so it doesn't function very well here and volume has to be quite low in order to avoid breaking.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uz1zpf3m2toy7jo/MWF.mp3?dl=0

It's hard to make a very distinct break between these described sounds and they connect pretty well.

In the CVT Sound Library samples I mostly hear that "Neutral" is usually used in the lower pitches and "Falsetto" in the higher pitches.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby funkypou » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:24 pm

I think what you call falsetto is just Neutral without necessary twang, that's why it doesn't work very well (lack of one of the 3 basic principles).
If you have problems keeping a proper consistent Neutral when you ascend in pitch, I suggest that you work with distinct twang. And of course, breaks can also come from a lack of support. Support and twang are the key.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:57 pm

Falsetto works pretty well but not in that particular part of my voice, as I said it has a lower limit. It can be quite loud above E4. The difference between these two has something to do with compression but I wouldn't say it's twang. If I only add distinct twang to the "Falsetto" it doesn't change into "Neutral". It'll only sound just like BeeGees. The most inevitable difference between Falsetto and Neutral is the break when volume is increased.

I can't provide any examples at the moment due to bronchitis, my voice is pretty much gone. Anyway, I searched through this forum and I found some Kaare's responses that should clear this out a bit.

"question to kaare about low flageolet in metallic modes"

Kaare wrote: We can experience different sensations in various modes, often a "like-Neutral" can feel different than a Neutral note as it´ll often cost more to make it sound like metal even if its not.
***
I hear 2 positions in Neutral. One is more in the direction of a "like" (more connected to the rest of the voice and the other (the one you call flageolet) is a Neutral. If you turn this last one slightly down (and yes I mean further down) it will most likely be produced with partial vibrations (flageolet). It would be nice if its was as simple as the 2 sounds you posted in the clip, but its more complicated. Again, you can feel a difference from sound to sound, but its not a Flageolet you feel...
***
If you keep the Flageolet whilst turning up the volume it will result in a split (not a vocal break) But I dont think you do that. Im sure you are generally in Neutral, but you have identified this as your flageolet. Thats the problem! - It feels like the same position as the flageolet, but its not due to the slightly louder volume.


Apparently Neutral has two different feeling (and sounding) positions. One that isn't connected to the metallic modes and other that is. In my experience, both can be sung with or without air. To me and probably to many others as well, the sensation is very different as well as is the sound, which is why I feel there's a score to settle when they are not treated as different entities. Or at least, I think it should be mentioned somewhere in the book. I have met people who can connect these two positions and people that don't which might cause confusion and technical difficulties. E.g. my attempts to increase the volume with the "unconnected Neutral" in the high part of my voice eventually got me louder yet unstable and poor sounding notes which I tried to modify better for quite a while. All this was pointless because that was a wrong approach. Of course, the book emphasizes that you should learn the modes separately before attempting to connect them.

Anyway, the World Voice Day is in next month, and there's usually a possibility to get a video of your vocal cords. So I think I'm gonna make a one where I change between these settings because it would be really cool to see how the laryngeal setting changes between them :)

EDIT: Here's a great example of a break between the two coordinations by Hanmuller https://app.box.com/shared/xn7gsmr6ug
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby funkypou » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:49 pm

highnotemaniac wrote:If I only add distinct twang to the "Falsetto" it doesn't change into "Neutral". It'll only sound just like BeeGees.

Actually, the Bee Gees often use Neutral with distinct twang. Listen to the last "aliiiiiiiiive" in the chorus of Staying Alive, that's Edge like Neutral.

highnotemaniac wrote:Apparently Neutral has two different feeling (and sounding) positions. One that isn't connected to the metallic modes and other that is.

Again, it sounds exactly like a problem of twang. Without twang, you can't connect Neutral to the metallic modes. You need to make Neutral sound more metallic with the help of twang if you want to switch to a metallic mode without a break. Support is also important in transitions between modes.
I think you just misinterpret what your voice does. You should take a lesson with a CVT teacher to get rid of any confusion and move on (I have also lost much time misinterpreting my vocal problems). He/she should be able to help you produce a good Neutral with enough twang.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:41 pm

First of all, I have worked with three different CVT teachers and at least two them have concluded that there are two different, low volume sounds that are both considered as Neutral by CVT's definition. Although, the sound and sensation are slightly different. My last teacher told me that he has heard some CVT teachers call them in different names such as "Falsetto-Neutral" and Neutral. So this isn't just "my misinterpretation". I don't have any problems when it comes to connecting the modes, I'd just like to hear CVT's official point of view on this particular matter.

Here I come down A-major scale with the "unconnected Neutral". I try to keep the volume as loud as possible in way that even a little increase would cause a break. Then I do the same but this time with a distinct twang. It's pretty twanged already, though. Otherwise the volume would be much lower.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ovldffvjp5km ... j.mp3?dl=0

Then, while maintaining the twang, I try to increase the volume at C4 in order to end up in Edge, break appears. So I would conclude that twang is not the solution.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gdwxm70twexk2d/NF-E.mp3?dl=0

This is also the same transition described in the CVT Research Site:

http://completevocalinstitute.com/cvtre ... -and-edge/

It's a shame that Metal-Like Neutral isn't presented in that site.

Anyway, now I do the same with "connected Neutral". No breaks.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w4epoyjcp6mk4/N-E.mp3?dl=0

You can try to have a fully connected voice by using transition: "unconnected Neutral" -> "connected Neutral" -> metallic mode. But usually some sort of a break is still heard.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/17eq1yommpcrm ... C.mp3?dl=0

Also, I have to disagree that distinctly twanged Neutral equals Edge-Like Neutral. I think you need to also turn up the volume.

If you for example compare these two:

Bee Gees - Stayin' Alive (1977)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_izvAbhExY (@ 0.48)

VH1 DIVAS + Adam Lambert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etMkLClfbOA (@ 0.16)

I think the note in last link is Edge-Like Neutral whereas it's only distinctly twanged Neutral in the BeeGee's Staying Alive.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby funkypou » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:36 pm

highnotemaniac wrote:Then, while maintaining the twang, I try to increase the volume at C4 in order to end up in Edge, break appears. So I would conclude that twang is not the solution.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gdwxm70twexk2d/NF-E.mp3?dl=0

I don't hear much twang in this Neutral. It lacks the "buzz". If you have the sound library that goes with the book, listen to number 63.
Furthermore, you switch very quickly as if you tried to do the break in purpose, like yodel. On the example where you succeed to connect the modes, the switch is more progressive (you slowly increase twang and support).
Twang was my first idea but I don't know if the break only comes from a lack of twang. It may come from a lack of support. It's easy to do an unsupported Neutral and that may be what you call "unconnected Neutral" because it doesn't feel like being in control from the support muscles.

I also have this kind of problem and I have been attracted by the "flageolet/falsetto/mysterious unconnected Neutral" explanation but the fact is the more I master support and twang, the less I have this problem. But if research has found a special vocal configuration which explains this problem, I'm interested to know more about it (I really do, no irony in this sentence).

highnotemaniac wrote:VH1 DIVAS + Adam Lambert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etMkLClfbOA (@ 0.16)

I think the note in last link is Edge-Like Neutral whereas it's only distinctly twanged Neutral in the BeeGee's Staying Alive.

To me, Adam Lambert's scream at 0.16 sounds like real Edge but I may be wrong.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Kaare » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:29 pm

Hi there.
Falsetto-Neutral is not a term that anyone uses at CVI.

First link is Neutral with a bit of distinct twang

Second: you are changing between a non metallic and metallic sound abruptly on 2 different vowels, which is why the break occurs. In order to eliminate the break you have to change from one sound to another quite slowly and with a lot of focus on support.

The metal like Neutral are not presented yet, but it will be down the line. It´s a vast bundle of material to go through each time we do research.
The good thing is that there is a site that presents all research being done. I dont know of any other places where research is made public almost immediately.

In the fourth link the vowel is the same and you gradually twang it into the metal mode. At the same time you seem to work harder (support!) which is probably what you call "connected"?
I call it supported...

In the fifth it sounds like a flageolet to Neutral to medium Edge, but its hard to say from a recording.

About BeeGees and Lambert I dont think there´s a huge difference in the highest note from one artist to the other. But, it goes without saying that, Edge like Neutral doesnt only involve one single, fixed setting/position. We have many different positions within the category, like we have in all modes.
In the example it sounds like Lambert has a longer closed phase of the cords, meaning more volume, meaning (often) closer to metal (Edge) - but still without having become metal.
BeeGees has more twang, but a shorter closed phase (less volume - further from metal) but still within the category of Edge like N.

Take standard Neutral in the high part:
We have so many possibilities of coloring it super dark or super light, turn it quite a lot up in volume and turn it all the way down. Add air and not.
But...its still Neutral.

This is the CVI point of view anyway, but that doesnt matter at all.
The important thing is how you get it to make sense to you :-)

Thanks for the links and thoughts.
Best regards
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:54 pm

Thank you for your answers! :)

It's not possible to achieve a proper (yodel) break when using, let's call it now, "supported Neutral". No matter how rapidly you try to increase the volume and/or change the vowel.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/muo2gvl2f3omy ... g.mp3?dl=0

Pedagogically it doesn't really matter what's the real difference between these two coordinations. Whether it is support and/or twang or something else. But it is a fact that you need the other one to have a "connected voice" and the other one to achieve vocal breaks. So when practising, a singer should aware of this.

I'm not able to bring the "supported Neutral" higher than D4, which is unfortunate, cause the difference of their character is more clearly heard in higher range where volume can be louder.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eywtlv0q2djuj ... n.mp3?dl=0

Anyway, I was just curious about the physiological and terminological aspects of this. This doesn't cause me any confusion so it's pointless to rant about this. Though, I would claim that the closed phase is longer in "supported Neutral", which is why it's more "connected" and explains also why it's easier to hit the higher notes and achieve breaks with "unsupported Neutral". And if you look at the spectrogram "supported Neutral" has more overtones. Perhaps this is just the fundamental difference between Neutral and Metal-Like Neutral?

P.S. Kaare if you read this, I think you should also listen the two sound samples in the first post of this page (4) where I demonstrate both of these coordinations by singing with them.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Kaare » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:13 pm

Hi there.
Well where to start...
The closed phase of one or the other depends on pitch/volume etc but on the same note the "supported" one (even if thats a bad term as it indicates that the other is unsupported, which is doesnt have to be at all...) probably has a longer closed phase as the volume is slightly higher.
But this is also an indivisual thing.

There are hardly any overtones in Neutral, so I´m not gonna go into this.

I think what you need to do practically is connect the two "sensations" of Neutral.
In the low part you use the connected one (the like) and as soon as you arrive at the d4 or maybe slightly before change to the other.
Try to keep the same vowel and focus on support in the transition. Maybe practice the transition isolated.


There are a vast number sensations and possibilities in the various modes, so see it as possibility in your voice, rather than a problem.
You might not, but just to make sure :-)

Make sense?
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:23 pm

Hey!


Thanks for the answers. Could the "connected" Neutral be also an uncentered mode? A metallic mode with added air which is possible in the middle part of one's range? This would somewhat explain why it's hard to produce it in the high part of the range.

Anyway, here's a bit more practical approach to my actual problem.

Here's Adam Lambert's (again :D) audition from the AI. I'm gonna focus on the first line ("Mama, just killed a man, put a gun against his head) of the song where he uses the sound I'd like to learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XAFyuso61w

Starts @ 0.57

Here's me trying to imitate it with my ("unconnected") Neutral. It doesn't cost much and it sounds partly the same but there's a hint of something missing. It needs probably a little bit higher CQ, but if I try to increase the volume my voice breaks or starts creaking.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rclpawdxzkd7e ... N.mp3?dl=0

Now I'm trying to sing the phrase with metal in the lowest possible volume. Doesn't sound too good and it's uncontrollably constricted as well. If I lower the volume further creaking appears. Same thing happens if I try to go higher in pitch (after F4) because I can't increase the volume enough along the way so it gets relatively lower.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4nzm1loffgpzl ... l.mp3?dl=0

And here's what I get, no matter which angle I try to approach it. It's like my voice is trying to do two things at the same time rather than find a balance in between.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujd5t5f4kml31 ... g.mp3?dl=0

I'd also like to improve my metallic modes. But, I think if I could make the metallic modes and Neutral to connect that would also help to control the metallic modes. Is poor support the key issue here?

Weirdly, SLS and SS methods make a little bit sense because now I'm kinda trying to "mix" two coordinations :D Neutral ("head voice") feels like it's resonating above my mouth and metallic modes ("pulled chest voice") feel like they're reasonating in my mouth (as they're claiming). And the "mix" or the creaking between these coordinations resonates in both areas. I just don't know why my voice won't settle :D I know this might be non sense, but I guess now I understand SLS's approach.

Anyhow, overall when using my Neutral I feel like I'm giving up too much constrictions (compared to my sound desires) and when using metallic modes in the high part of my voice I'm unable to give up any constrictions which eventually limits my range. Of course, similiar problems occur with Neutral around C5 but I guess that's another story.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby highnotemaniac » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:17 pm

Hey! Just a little update here. So I went to a phoniatrician during the World Voice Day and everything seems to be fine with my vocal cords :) Just some very minimal callouses which she said are normal since I use my voice more than an average person and that they don't affect to the voice production. So, apparently (and luckily) my vocal problems are just technical ones :)
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Mungfield » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:05 pm

Good for you Highnotemaniac.
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Re: How long can you hold a note?

Postby Kaare » Mon May 11, 2015 9:04 am

Good to hear :-)
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