singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resonance

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singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resonance

Postby Burandon1993 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:57 am

Hi this question is for all those in CVT land, it's about your mental thought, image or sensation for when you are changing pitch in the modes of curbing & neutral only, since I haven't practiced edge or overdrive yet & I have a major vocal split, I have unresolved from my Singing success days. :x

I know resonance isn't talked about in the book because it's not descriptive enough, and it confuses people in terms of "placement". I can sing "head voice" neutral mode in low notes, and then sing a high note in head voice position, which I believe messes with the voice. Please someone tell me, I'm starting to think your supposed to stay in your "chest voice area" & not try to shift the voice around & try to make it rise mentally. I tried the whole shabang, you know the imagine your notes low in chest then goes behind soft palate then raises past nose, into forehead and ears. That stuff seems to put my voice out of alignment because I was chasing after this sought out vocal ring, resonance, sweetness that a tenor voice like mine or just something I know my voice used to have before I did vocal training. I'm just gonna say forget this whole resonance crap, & focus on sound quality of modes, & cord closure. Even simple exercise like forward buzzing lips MMMM, low notes its fine, high notes the buzz disappears so then I do a 1000 things to get the buzz causing me to think, this is a waste of time n effort. Doesn't cord closure or cord adduction relate to vocal splits?

Everyone on the other parts of web, uses all these images as facts or tell me I'm supposed to feel twang in the frontal mask position, or I'm supposed to direct my airflow out mouth and not into nose. It's all doesn't work for me & it feels like I'm trying to make something active that is by nature passive and needs to remain passive like In the past I would obsess about the direction of airflow thanks to someone in the SLS camp with the whole your airflow splits half mouth half nose, now I know more about how the voice works but I wasted lots of time on trying to make passive vocal functions active.


For me, when I sing a high neutral note in my "head voice position/area" and I keep my jaw relaxed, it feels to be loose breathy but then there's that dreaded moment when I descend down a scale or sing "DOWN" to a lower note, my voice breaks no matter the volume. If I keep my tonal quality soft and volume low, then the break rarely happens but sometimes it happens and then it makes me depressed about trusting the mode quality . So I'm guessing it's an issue of obeying & really staying in center in the modes? or is it that I'm trying to place or force my voice in an area that it doesn't need to be in regardless of mode.

I think the challenge for me is first defeating this vocal split, then relearning how to sing in neutral mode. Has anyone had a vocal split from bad technique like me then fixed it and then relearned how to sing the modes properly? & when you ladies & gentlemen sing do you feel your voice shifting from "chest voice" to "head voice" area or do you just feel your singing all the modes in one area? For the longest I was trying to find a mental image or sensation I could use to help me change pitch effectively without worrying about descending or ascending on a low volume.

I can provide a song clip if needed. In the meantime I'll go listen to the sound library & try to thoroughly listen to see if I hear a male singer singing a neutral high note, in his chest voice position rather than head.

Just from experimenting it seems as though, and its something you can do to and notice I think, but Its something I'm doing with not a lot of support or twang at all.

singing neutral mode all in the ""chest voice area/position" plus listen for soft tone & low volume then
sing neutral mode high notes in head voice area then drop down to sing low notes in chest voice area using the same setup to see if the break occurs even though I'm keeping the same low volume.

Hopefully someone understands what I'm talking about & can point me in the right direction, I feel like this is a fundamental problem but only an expert or someone who been through knows how to fix it. I'm bad at explaining things, but I can clarify if I confused you. Sorry for text wall. One last thing, I love how brilliant the vocal MODES are, I remember in the past I would take vocal lessons with coaches but they didn't know about modes, while I did, so they would say for example do a exercise like singing through a straw softly and I immediately convert it to, oh you want me to sing neutral mode through the straw? but they didn't understand at all because of not knowing modes, but I believe modes to be superior rather than saying words like soft, loud, forward, backward because I can be soft in my chest voice then sing high notes in my head voice softly but it still feels like i'm bring up a whole bunch of tension & constriction even at a low volume. I wish modes became the new standard instead of passaggio, & bridging. I feel like once I think about passagio, I gotta think about a 1000x things to do in order to "bridge properly." UGH. :roll:
Last edited by Burandon1993 on Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby funkypou » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:56 am

First of all, I will ask you to post a recording. An ascending and descending siren would be a good way to hear the split.
Hearing your voice would be easier for us than trying to get what you mean by Neutral in the chest voice or head voice area. Because the expressions you use can be related to the sound you get at different pitches, the use of flageolet, the use or lack of twang, etc.

For now, I can just talk about my own experience : I indeed had (still have but less often than before) a problem of split in the middle of the range. This is usually due to an uncontrolled change of modes generally caused by a problem with one of the 3 basic principles (support, twang, constrictions). For me, it happens because I want to keep a certain sound quality and volume (not too loud, at home) all along my range, which means I have to change between 2 or 3 modes (mostly Overdrive, Curbing and Neutral).

If I just stay in Neutral, which means having a hollow, very quiet voice in the low part and getting something more piercing in the high part, it's very easy for me not to have any split. But I want a more consistent sound in the low part. I had a lesson at the end of June with a CVT teacher and she told me I needed more twang to connect my modes (I think was using Curbing and Neutral in the song I was practicing). I also needed to improve my support.

So here is my piece of advice : choose the modes you want to connect, choose a vowel that works with both of them and with twang and practice sirens and scales focusing on the 3 basic principles. And of course, don't forget to post a recording.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby Burandon1993 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:29 pm

Here is the soundclip I'm going to sleep with my deranged sleep pattern lol My attempt at neutral. My voice is now shot, but sleep will fix it. NO CORD CLOSURE & Idk how to get it, practicing overdrive is not the fix for me. :x :evil:

http://clyp.it/edit3m5o

My voice felt like a windy breathy hot humid mess with no connection felt, I've just gotten very good at singing with a vocal split but if I keep it up my voice dies on me, as you can hear me on hear. It prevents me from even feeling twang properly. I feel my voice is really messed up. Please help. Also I would love it if you could comment on my vocal tone, I want it to be warm, sweet, non nasal or shrill, almost clear & childlike for upper range & then smooth & sensual for lower range, but I'm curious of what ya'll think of my vocal tone as it is in it's raw form. Lastly it seems even when I support & twang in the past, it seems the vocal split isn't fixed or solved, its more like i'm giving it crack or enhancing it to a super split lvl 100. :cry:
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby funkypou » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:58 pm

Your Neutral is a little breathy but it doesn't sound bad. Sometimes, when you sing low parts, you use metallic modes (mostly at the end) and it sounds all right. But of course, between these 2 settings, there's no possible direct connection that's why you experience splits like at 2:13. If you want smooth transitions, I think you need to remove air from your Neutral and add twang. I would advise you to work with support and twang (it's just a humble amateur piece of advice but it can't be bad to improve your support and twang). That doesn't mean your actual Neutral is bad, it's just that it's difficult to connect it to the metallic modes and if you want, you can keep it and use fuller and twangier Neutral just between the transitions.

Maybe you could also post a clip of sirens so that we can hear clearly the transition problems. Sirens are good to check your splits and practice smooth transitions.

Keep in mind that I'm just a learning singer as you are so I might be wrong. I just gave you my impressions.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby Kaare » Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:25 pm

I hear medium Overdrive on many of the low notes in the sound clip.
To me the Neutral sounds fine.

Generally; if something doesnt make sense to you, leave it!
There are many ways to learn and understand stuff, dont despair.

I would suggest you to book a lesson at a certain point.
You have many questions and ideas of what you are doing, but to really know I think you have to work one on one with a CVT coach.

A vocal split is in fact a flageolet (partial vibrations of the cords) versus full vibrations (what the cords normally do below the high C).
So its an acoustic thing and practice boils down to locating centers and sticking to them untill the body knows them.
I havent heard any split so far in your clip.

My money is on the fact that you simply (unwillingly) change mode and we just have to make you stay in the mode.
Book a session, then the problem is either solved/or you know how to solve it.

Best regards
Kaare
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby Burandon1993 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:54 am

Okay I'll post clip of sirens later when my voice heals up, my cords are puffy from forcing voice so much . I still don't know how to cure that problem of forcing air, the image of singing inwards & slowing breath in front of candle doesn't help me at all. It seems like I can force my voice even while using different forms of supporting if I think about it, what do you guys do to fix that usually? Example, The high note comes up, its in curbing mode, what do you do to make sure you don't force and blast a whole bunch of air that leaves your voice like mine, swelled and unable to sing high? Its almost like no matter what I do or how quiet I always still force even though I'm supporting so it must be having to do with support or how I support and focus that is keeping me stuck with forcing my voice.

Lastly, I think I may be having such a big disconnect because of my perception about the singing & talking voice.

Robert Lunte vocal coach says in his program that the singing voice & talking voice are not the same and how the talking voice is primitive , I can only go by peoples words and results since there is no evidence for me to see on that. I know you guys at CVT look at the research, I think I may be trying to change my voice or do something weird when I actually start to make sound, almost like I shouldn't be singing with the same voice or the same way I talk. Whats your thoughts on this, please clarify. I did not read in the CVT book about this topic, or if it was please tell me page number.

And Thank you, good to know I do not have any audible vocal splits, just not staying centered in the modes then. That's something I can work really hard on. Actually I've taken 2 lesson with the CVT coach in USA months ago , shes wonderful but next time if I do have a lesson with her, I want to get into the topic of finding a fix for that forcing issue if the images provided don't work for me. I just have a hard time understanding concepts with coaches or sometimes it works perfectly in lesson then outside of lesson, back to square 1 lol.

@Kaare, I just always thought I had a vocal split because lets say I sing low to high in neutral, my voice would glitch on the way up, but when I really think about it, its probably because I'm not supporting correctly at all and of course I don't even think about twang, I bet those two things done correctly will probably help me stop blowing my voice out at least on the light stuff, what makes it worse is lol I blew my voice out just from singing in neutral & MLN, not even overdrive,edge or other stuff.

@Funkypou, no your abosolutely right, When I'm singing low notes, I don't really want them to be in overdrive, just in neutral WITHOUT AIR but I can't seem to twang and support right so it kinda forces me to switch to a lowered volume overdrive which is annoying because I did not intend for that to happen, or when I sing the chorus, " In the darkness night hour I'll search through the crowd" my whole goal was to sing it in either MLN or Curbing but my voice was too windy, too much air and I didn't hear a lot of twang so it was just a mess to me. and no I love all the advice, opinions, & criticisms you throw my way. I eat em up & learn from them.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby Burandon1993 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:14 am

OMG I just look at the trouble shoot section of the CVT BOOK for a solution for my voice, & believe I just found out the better way for me to inhale, this whole time I've been breathing low like trying to make my navel area come out but this time I ignored it and I just focused on breathing out hard with my hands near lower ribs and waist and inhaled in that area, just the rib area, and I noticed to solar plexus bulge finally appeared, then I started singing, although my voice needs to rest to heal, I found I can sing more and easily. If i'm not mistaken the sensation that I'm supposed to have is almost like blowing up a balloon, in the past when I read that I would pull my lower abs inwards, but this time I used my hands to stimulate blowing into a balloon, and I only noticed my solar plexus area being flexed/pushed out/flexed out more and that seems to help, but I just wanted clarification on that as well. Is that somewhat similar to what you feel when you go to sing a note. It feels like a constant outward motion at the ribcage area, I just have to make sure I have it set up before I actually made sound, the other stuff like support value & energy is too confusing for me but I know I'll get the hang out of it in the future.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby funkypou » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:04 am

Burandon1993 wrote:When I'm singing low notes, I don't really want them to be in overdrive, just in neutral WITHOUT AIR but I can't seem to twang and support right so it kinda forces me to switch to a lowered volume overdrive which is annoying because I did not intend for that to happen

Be careful with mode sounds at different pitches : low Neutral is very quiet and, in my opinion, sounds a little breathy even if it's not (I had the confirmation of a CVT teacher that my low Neutral wasn't breathy though I thought it was). So don't be afraid of this sound at low pitches, it's normal and if you try to have a more consistent sound, you might switch to another mode. That's why you have breaks : you switch from metallic modes to Neutral without even knowing it. If you just want to stay in Neutral, you have to accept that your low notes will be very quiet and and without edge. At a high pitch, it's a totally different sound : it can be loud and very piercing. Once you know that and you don't force your low notes to be more consistent than they should be in Neutral, you can stay in the mode and it's very easy not to have any breaks.

I know that because I had the same problem : I thought this hollow sound wasn't a proper non breathy Neutral at low pitches and I was using other modes to counterbalance. Now that I know that, I still use metallic modes at low pitches but I know I have to use a few tricks not to have any break (or split or whatever you call it) when I switch to Neutral : I have to use a good amount of support, twang and choose a good vowel, especially at a high pitch.

So the key is knowing what you actually do to know what can be wrong because the book can give you a good recipe but can't tell you if you apply it properly. And of course, a good teacher can help you with that.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby singing101 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:21 pm

Everything in the book makes learning anything vocally seem instant and easy.
It's not though. Maybe with a CVT teacher in person, but in my experience in Skype lessons and working with book, getting better is really hard, slow, you get kinda hoarse, and extremely confused.

Of course I'm sure there are plenty of people that just read the book and can do everything in a couple years, and I'm happy some can, I sure as hell haven't and it's been 3.

I live a continent away and have no funds to go visit Denmark. So essentially I'm on my own.

My plan is to just struggle with this book and the occasional Skype lesson when I can get it. Maybe in 25 years I'll have tenor range.

I've improved a lot as far as the variety of sound colors I'm able to do, and I'm more vocally artistic, but can I really sing any higher? - not really. And I have to be careful now because all the "support" work quickly and easily gets locked. It sucks.

I don't really lose my voice, I just get phlegm and tight, so at least that's a plus. it's severely limiting though. I get depressed about it a lot. Very frustrating to find concrete information on singing after years of struggle, only to struggle more and have new sounds but new problems too. I feel like an idiot. Like someone handing me the answers and I'm too stupid to make it work. Ugh.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby eggplantbren » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:19 am

"I don't really lose my voice, I just get phlegm and tight, so at least that's a plus. it's severely limiting though. I get depressed about it a lot. Very frustrating to find concrete information on singing after years of struggle, only to struggle more and have new sounds but new problems too. I feel like an idiot. Like someone handing me the answers and I'm too stupid to make it work. Ugh."

You're not the only one! Many people have these kinds of struggles. I still do -- I've progressed from where I was but there's still a long way to go before I can do everything I want to do.
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Re: singing pitch, vocal splits, neutral & done with resona

Postby Kaare » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:23 am

Burandon:
Think of your Neutral as a metal mode that is turned Down in vol. to below 4 (vol. scale 1-10).
Start in metal (Overdrive/"EH") - keep the position as you very gradually decrease the vol.
This will cos you supportwise but if you do this transition in vol (and thereby in modes) you are changing the setting in the vocal tract so gradually that no break should occur.

Signing101: Which continent is it?
You know that you can find CVT teachers "close to you" on the cvt website right?

Best regards
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