Problems that CVT can't explain

Share your knowledge or questions about vocal technique: Belting, high notes, power, hoarseness, distortion, support, Curbing, sound color, singers nodules, microphones, vibrato..... DOES NOT HAVE TO BE "COMPLETE VOCAL TECHNIQUE" RELATED - All kinds of vocal technique posts are WELCOME :)

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Re: Problems that CVT can't explain

Postby pabrah » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:55 am

highnotemaniac wrote:This is quite an old thread. Somebody just bumped this up. Yes, I have worked with three different authorized CVT teachers for a couple of years and all of them have kinda concluded that they don't have much to give me anymore. I'm thinking about paying a visit to CVI when I find the time.

It has been confirmed that I can center the modes in my comfort zone. When I get in trouble in the beginning of the 4th octave the center is lost but of course I'm not changing anything voluntarily. My guess is that my voice just tries to compensate the excessive air pressure and guides it towards Flageolet when constrictions stop almost all the vibrations. So my main problem is more support related than anything else. Anyway, I have more recent posts in the "How long can you hold a note?" -thread.

Why do you think that is? Not to be a jerk, but do you think maybe you are just the .001% who can't understand or do some basic concept (I saw on another forum where a guy couldn't find his falsetto, when it's considered to be an innate ability that everybody has)? Or maybe you know everything there is to know in regards to proper technique and/or practicing but you haven't put in enough hours yet to get everything down?

It's just a little disheartening/disappointing if you truly have learned all there is to know from CVT lessons and you aren't where you want to be/or at least can't teach/fix yourself.
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Re: Problems that CVT can't explain

Postby Kaare » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:02 am

The way I see it is this:
If a singer has the motivation to sing, then the journey of singing has just begun.

We, and I mean ALL singers, are never fully baked.
There are so many possibilites in our voices, different nuances, different approaches, so many musical styles to try out - its (luckily) an endless journey.

If you have the possibility then by all means come by CVI for a lesson.
Im sure somebody can help you with potential issues.

What I wonder about is why you call it "Falsetto".
For an authorized CVI coach this term is a polluted one, in the sense that we cant be sure what it means.
Of course you might have explained this to your CVI teacher at hand but the term is generally too unconcrete.

"Falsetto" originally means high/very high pitch and doesnt have a specific sound.
Its merely a pitch denomination meaning that it can be sung in many different ways/modes.

For many it means Neutral.

Is that what you mean?

Best regards
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Re: Problems that CVT can't explain

Postby highnotemaniac » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:10 pm

pabrah wrote: It's just a little disheartening/disappointing if you truly have learned all there is to know from CVT lessons and you aren't where you want to be/or at least can't teach/fix yourself.

Pabrah, without knowing my background, I think you're being very unreasonable here.

I got interested in singing when I was around around 19-20 years old and before that I hadn't sing almost anything. So I really didn't have any natural talent and everyone just kept saying me that you can't learn something that is inherited. You just don't simply have it.

So having sung only for a couple of years while taking lessons I wouldn't say my progress is disappointing in case of an "ungifted" person. Of course, the fact that I had been playing keyboards for years was a huge advantage.

Although, I haven't figured out the issues with my high notes, I have improved my tone, my ability to sing in pitch, learned vibrato, little ornamentation and some effects. Even my range has increased from D2-D5 to D2-G6. Of course nothing is very usable above D4, but at least the high notes exist in some form.

I'm quite sure that if you would randomly pick ten people out from the street including me, it would be likely that I was the best of them. And I think that really is something although I haven't met my goals yet.

Thanks to CVT, at least I know what I'm supposed to work on (support). If I was working with more of a traditional teacher I would probably be trying to find my "passagio" or "mixing registers" or some other nonsense which wouldn't get me nowhere. One of my teachers told me that it can really take a long time to get your support working.
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Re: Problems that CVT can't explain

Postby pabrah » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:27 pm

Kaare- yes I mean neutral, more specifically neutral w/air. I don't know if you believe every male at least can find their neutral w/air (whether it's pleasant or not) but if I remember correctly every vowel can be used in neutral I assume that would make it the easiest. A different program that will remain nameless (but it's big on science like CVT is) says that falsetto and "belt" (which I believe would be overdrive) are sounds/modes that come naturally for humans.

highnotemaniac- you're right that I shouldn't make assumptions, and I bet if I did meet you I'd find you more "gifted" than most (the fact that you use CVT can't hurt :D ) but again I was just trying to figure out how 3 different CVT teachers could say they've taught you everything they can. Though it sounds like you answered my question by your mentioning about getting support down, which makes sense to me as you described how it can take a very long time to get down. Not to mention that everybody can use an annual kind of checkup since it's easy to get lazy and forget certain aspects of technique.

PS- I guess to Kaare, but to anybody who can answer- Is the proper term "CVI teachers" or "CVT teachers?" I often use the terms interchangeably unless I'm specifically talking about the school (CVI) or the book (CVT).
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Re: Problems that CVT can't explain

Postby Kaare » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:27 am

Hi Again.
I will again underline that most singers havent yet/never will meet their goals, as the goals change.
And...thats a good thing!
Of course there should be progress and if no progress is taking place, we have to ask ourselves what we need to change.
Like too ambitious goals (for now), are we practicing correctly (practice slowly to learn fast, keeping stuff simple, pracitcing only the healthy stuff/for muscle memory) - are the 3 overall principles an Integrated part of the singing?
Do we need to change teachers for new perspectives?

And yes, everybody can learn Neutral with air! Its a sound that every person has been doing tens of thouasand times during his or her life, so its in there - it just need a little technical "love and care" to be set free.

Yes other techniques are using terms like falsetto and belt.
But look up the words and if possible listen to how confused people are as to their specific sound...
Thats why we dont use these terms as the mean different things in different parts of the world.

And in some parts of the world - Neutral and Overdrive are generally the easier modes, but this is due to culture.
In other parts Edge is ruling and a few places we hear a much more restrained quality.

An authorized CVT teacher is one that has a valid certificate from CVI but is not employed by CVI.
A CVI teacher (always has a valid certificate) and is employed by CVI (Complete vocal Institute)

Make sense?
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Re: Problems that CVT can't explain

Postby singing101 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:54 pm

I would love to see more research done and categorizing taking places on singers and the "average time" it takes them to learn X. I think it would help give people more realistic time frames on when they could achieve what.

I'm completely aware that there is a vast difference between how fast "neutral with air" is learned with one person vs. another person. While one person sings primarily in neutral with air, and therefore doesn't really have to "learn" how to do it, for another person it's the most unfamiliar territory in their voice and it takes them years to get it down.

To me, it seems easy enough to find those people for which a sound is new (and clearly difficult), and have them all measure how long they practiced that sound over a period of years until they eventually got to their goal. So find all the people that are struggling with neutral with air in the high part of the voice, and track how long it takes before it's a cinch.

I've taken about 10 CVT lessons with 2 different CVT teachers and I still haven't "solved" my problem. I have found that I can sing in neutral now and actually sound REALLY good, so I definitely have improved because I could never even visit those soft volumes. But everyday I feel a little disappointed, because I'd like to sing high without difficulty and without metal, and I still can't do it, even though I've been trying for more than a decade.
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Re: Problems that CVT can't explain

Postby ivanlagru » Sat May 30, 2015 6:43 am

Hi, I've recently discovered how to do neutral with distortion (and control distortion without adding in rattle or creak unless I want to) and it took me quite a long time. But I mostly learned on my own, had a few skype lessons with Maja Christjansson from Denmark, a great coach and she laid the basics real well for me to start building on, but without guidance it can get tricky.
I think people subestimate support, and how free it feels when you really get the technique down, and sing in the center of the modes. I was singing rather decently, even started teaching as a part time job, but was still limited by this lack of distortion in neutral thing (I sing metal/grunge/hard rock), and only got it down last year! (started singing in 2003, and with CVT during 2005).
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